The Host

Julie Rovner KFF Health News @jrovner @julierovner.bsky.social Read Julie's stories. Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system is only a “system” in the most generous sense of the word and that no one entity is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states, and still others that are shared between them. And sometimes people and programs fall through the cracks.

Speaking before a live audience on June 23 at Aspen Ideas: Health in Colorado, three former governors — one of whom also served as secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services — discussed what it would take to make the nation’s health care system run more smoothly.

The session, moderated by KFF Health News’ Julie Rovner, featured Democrat Kathleen Sebelius, a former governor of Kansas and HHS secretary under President Barack Obama; Republican Chris Sununu, former governor of New Hampshire; and Democrat Roy Cooper, former governor of North Carolina.

Panelists

Kathleen Sebelius Former HHS secretary, former Kansas governor (D) Chris Sununu Former governor of New Hampshire (R) Roy Cooper Former governor of North Carolina (D)

Among the takeaways from the discussion:

• States — and the governors who lead them — are major “customers” of the federal health system. For instance, states run research universities with the aid of federal grants from the National Institutes of Health. States also run Medicaid, the joint state-federal program for those with low incomes and disabilities, through which most of the nation’s care for issues such as mental health and substance use disorders is funded. In fact, most federal money sent to states is for Medicaid.
• Cuts to Medicaid outlined in the House and Senate versions of President Donald Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill Act would leave a huge hole in state budgets — one that the states, already facing budget constraints, would be unable to fill without making difficult choices. Notably, the bill does not make substantive cuts Medicare, a program that has a significant amount of excess spending and is expected to be insolvent within a decade.
• Controlling health care costs is a major concern for the future of the nation’s fragmented health care system, as is maintaining the health care workforce. More people without insurance coverage means higher overall costs. Pandemic burnout, immigration raids, and even the cost of college are putting pressure on a dwindling workforce. The federal government could do more to encourage medical professionals to go into primary care and rural health care.

Video of this episode is available here on YouTube.

Click to open the transcript Transcript: Live From Aspen — Governors and an HHS Secretary Sound Off

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. For this week’s podcast, we’re presenting a panel I moderated here with three former governors and one former HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary, on how states and the federal government work together. This was taped on Monday, June 23, before a live audience. So, as we say, here we go. 

Good morning. Thank you all for being here. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News, and I’m host of our weekly health news podcast — “What the Health?” — which we will do double duty this week for this panel. I am so thrilled to be here, and I welcome you all to Aspen Ideas: Health. As a journalist who’s covered health policy at the federal and state level for, let us just say, many years, I am super excited for this panel, which brings together those with experience in both. 

I will start by introducing our panelists. Here on my left is Kathleen Sebelius. She served as HHS secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, presiding over the passage and implementation of the Affordable Care Act. I hope you were all around last night for the wonderful panel where they were reminiscing. Prior to her tenure in Washington, Secretary Sebelius served two terms as Kansas’ elected insurance commissioner and two more as governor. Today she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. 

Next to her is Chris Sununu. He’s the former Republican governor of New Hampshire. Opposed, he was elected to a record four times before returning to the private sector. He’s also the only trained environmental engineer on this panel. 

Finally, Roy Cooper is the former Democratic governor of North Carolina, where he served alongside Gov. Sununu. I’m sure they have many stories to tell. As a state lawmaker, Mr. Cooper wrote the state’s first children’s health insurance program in the 1980s and as governor championed the state’s somewhat belated Medicaid expansion in 2023, which we’ll also talk about. He’s currently teaching at the Harvard School of Public Health. 

So here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to chat with these guys for, I don’t know, 30, 40 minutes, and then we will open it to questions from the audience. There will be someone with microphones. I will let you know when it’s time. Just please make sure your question is a question. 

So, I want to set the stage. It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system can only be called a system in the very most generous sense of that term. Nobody is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding that, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states and or counties and cities, and still others that are shared between them. Kathleen, you’re the one on this panel who has served as both governor and as HHS secretary, so I was hoping you could give us two or three minutes on what you see as the primary roles for health care at the federal level at HHS, and those for states. And then I’ll let the rest of you weigh in. 

Kathleen Sebelius: Well, good morning, everybody, and thanks, Julie, for moderating. It’s lovely to be with my colleagues. That’s one of my former lives, as governor, so it’s great to be with governor colleagues. And just to make it clear, we’re not trying to gang up on Chris Sununu. Alex Azar, former HHS secretary in the first Trump administration, was supposed to be here today and had a family health issue, so he couldn’t join us. So it was supposed to be a little more balanced just to— 

Chris Sununu: My conservative lifeline has abandoned me, and he’ll buy me dinner in D.C. next time I’m in town. 

Sebelius: So, as Julie said, I think the health system, if you want to call it that, is definitely interrelated. And I think it’s one of the reasons that a lot of HHS secretaries have actually been governors, because we’re customers, if you will, of the federal health system. But just to break down a couple of categories: I was the elected insurance commissioner, which is an unusual spot. Only 11 states elect an insurance commissioner. Most are appointed as part of a governor’s Cabinet, but insurance is an over $3 trillion-a-year industry, still regulated at the state level. It’s the only multitrillion-dollar industry that there is no federal insurance regulator, and it still has a lot of control over health issues at the state level. The insurance commissioners regulate the marketplace plans. They look out for every company selling private insurance. They regulate Medicare supplemental plans. They’re very involved in consumer protection issues for insurance. And that’s all at the state level. 

Then the governor is clearly in charge of health at the state level. Runs the state employee plan in every state, which often is the largest insurance pool. I don’t know about in North Carolina or New Hampshire, but it certainly was in Kansas. Runs Medicaid, a huge health program. Is in charge of mental health, of the whole issues around the opioid crisis and drug issues. So a broad swath. In charge of prison health and corrections. A lot of health issues at the state level. And then you get to HHS, which is an agency that probably interacts more with states than any other Cabinet agency. I wrote down some of these numbers just so I wasn’t making them up off the top of my head, but 69% of all federal grants to states are Medicaid, and HHS transfers more money to state governments than all the other domestic agencies put together. 

So it’s largely Medicaid, but it also is mental health block grants. It’s all the children and families programs. It’s Head Start. It’s agencies on aging. There’s a real interaction. So governors are often good customers, if you will, of HHS. They need to be intertwined. They need to know what’s going on, what grants are on the table. Runs the whole Indian Health Service. A number of us had tribes in our states. So there is a lot of interaction. And even though I wasn’t able to quickly quantify the number, the other thing — and it’s become more apparent with the cuts on the table — is states run universities, which rely on research grants from the federal government. 

So the recently announced NIH [National Institutes of Health] cuts have huge implications in Kansas. We have three major universities, which are losing hundreds of millions of dollars in research projects. But that’s gone on all over the country. So there is a lot of interaction between the state and federal government. And as I say, with the insurance commissioner, we had to build an office at HHS to regulate the marketplace, because there were no federal regulators. So I brought in a lot of my former colleagues who had been in insurance departments around the country, to help set up that regulatory system and that oversight. 

Rovner: So I would like to ask the two former governors who’ve not been HHS secretaries, if you can, to give us an example of cooperation between the federal government and state government on health care that worked really well and an example of one that maybe didn’t work so well. 

Sununu: So I would argue they don’t work well more than they work well, unfortunately. So a big issue I think, across the entire country, is rural access to care, right? So a lot of these grants — and the secretary’s right — a lot of the grants that come in through Medicaid, they’ll go to population centers and population health. That’s really, really important aspects. But rural access to care, where you talk about mental health, the opioid crisis, that’s really where so many folks get left out of the mix. We went down and I inherited — I don’t want to say “inherited” — New Hampshire was at the tip of the spear for the drug crisis, right? The opioid crisis, 2017, we had the second-highest death rate in the country, and we realized the overdose rate, the death rate, was four times higher in rural New Hampshire than our inner cities, right? Four times. Why? It wasn’t that — it’s because nobody was putting services out there. 

Because it’s so much easier to put the services in the city. So a good example is, we went down to D.C. We worked with, at the time, Secretary Azar, the head of CMS —CMS is the center of Medicaid services and Medicare services, that’s really the overseer of these massive, massive programs — to get some flexibility with the grants to be able to do a little more with our dollars and create a hub-and-spoke system for rural access to care. And that worked really, really, really well. And I’m not here to tout [President Donald] Trump or anything, but at the time the Trump administration really got that and it worked well. 

But I would say, more often than not, if you want something done a little different — we call them [Section] 1115 waivers, not to get wonky — you want to try something, the challenge isn’t that D.C. won’t let you do it. The challenge is it can take forever to get it done. It takes six months for my team to put together an 1115 application and then a year and a half sometimes for Washington to decide, after a hundred lawyers look at it, whether they’ll allow you to do it. So I would always argue, at the base of all this, is — Gov. Cooper, at the time, and his team, they know what North Carolina needs in terms of health care, specialized services, better than Washington, right? Or Mississippi. Or New Hampshire. The states know. They’re on the ground. 

And my argument has always been: The best thing Washington can do if you want to save money and get better outcomes in health care, go more to a block-grant-type system. I know people don’t like to hear that, but let the states who are on the ground have more flexibility with those Medicaid dollars, create the efficiency at a localized level, where the patient interactions there with a — because again, I had an opioid crisis. Maybe there’s a huge mental health crisis in North Carolina. Maybe there’s an acute-care crisis in urban populations in California. Let them have flexibility and the ability to make more immediate returns on that. And so that’s why I say more often than not, it doesn’t work, because of the time delay. The bureaucracy, the lawyers. No offense to the — well, I don’t care if you take offense. But the lawyers in the room, the lawyers that get a hold of this thing and then give you a hundred reasons why it can’t happen. 

And then the last thing I’ll throw out there is billing codes. Do you know there’s 10,000 Medicaid billing codes? Trying to ask a small nonprofit who’s providing local health care services and a volunteer to understand 10,000 Medicaid billing codes, and what happens? Often it’s not nefarious, but they get them wrong and then it comes back and it goes back and forth and the cash gets held up because of Washington, as opposed to just having a localized, We have our problem, let’s fix it on the ground, and move forward and get the help they need. So my challenge is always with the bureaucracy and slowing things down more than anything. 

Rovner: Gov. Cooper. 

Roy Cooper: Glad to be with you, Julie, and I worked closely with Gov. Sununu. We served as governors at the same time, and glad to have then-Gov. Sibelius, working with her when I was attorney general of North Carolina. I was an OK governor, but I’ve got the greatest first lady in the history of North Carolina with my wife, Kristin, who’s with us today. And thank you for all the work that you did. Somebody asked me what I miss most about being governor, and I said ingress and egress to sporting events was what I — because I had to learn to drive again. 

So I look at this relationship as the federal government being a major funder to reach goals, but that states have the flexibility within those guidelines to deal with individual challenges that states have. And I don’t disagree completely with Gov. Sununu about how the waiver system is working, but when you get it working, it does some miracles. 

For example, we got the first 1115 waiver in the country, to invest Medicaid dollars in social determinants of health. We called it Healthy Opportunities. And we’ve talked so much again and again about prevention and how investment there can make such a huge difference. We also got another waiver with hospital-directed payments to require all of our 99 hospitals to take part in a medical debt relief plan. When we expanded Medicaid in North Carolina, which we’ll talk a little bit about in a minute, more than 652,000 people were so grateful to have health insurance, but many of them owed so much money in medical debt that it prevented them from buying a house or getting a credit card and was causing all kinds of problems. So we got a waiver to put a requirement in the directed payments that hospitals are getting to make sure that we wipe off the books that $4 billion in medical debt in North Carolina, and that is happening as we speak. 

People are getting the books cleared, all people who were on Medicaid and those making 350% or less of the federal poverty level. And then going forward, in order to continue to get the directed payments, they have to automatically enroll people at that income level into their programs for charity. So the cost of health care is being borne by those who can least afford it. And Medicaid has given us the opportunity and the flexibility with Medicaid has given us an opportunity to make those investments, and that’s why I worry, Governor, about what this bill that’s coming — you talk about red tape now. You look at red tape that’s coming if this legislation passes Congress right now. It’s going to make it 10 times worse. 

So when you think about what Medicaid has done and this system with all of its faults — it has many — we’re at the lowest uninsured rate we’ve been right now. So that thus far has been a success. We’ve got a long way to go, but I think that we need to continue to work to make the investments angle toward prevention and keeping that symbiotic relationship between the federal and the state, make it smoother, eliminate red tape. But I think we’re making some progress. 

Rovner: So let’s talk about Medicaid, which is kind of the elephant in the room right now since the Senate is presumably going to take up a bill that would make some significant cuts to the program, possibly as soon as this week. You’ve all three run Medicaid programs as governors. One of the Republican talking points on this bill is that what’s supposed to be a shared program, states are using loopholes and gimmicks to make the federal government pay more. What would happen if these cuts actually went through? Would states be able to just say: OK, you caught us. Now we’re just going to have to pay up? 

Sebelius: Well, I can talk a little bit about it. So I live in a state, unfortunately, that has not expanded Medicaid. Kansas is one of the 10 states, although 40 states and the District of Columbia have used the Affordable Care Act provision to enroll slightly higher-income working folks in Medicaid. And it’s a huge federal-state partnership, with the federal government paying 90% of the premium cost of that additional population. 

Rovner: And that was because the states didn’t think they had the money to expand otherwise? 

Sebelius: That’s correct. So it was a generous offer, but after the Supreme Court it was a voluntary program. So there are still 10 states in the country, and what you can see easily looking at the map of the country is what the health outcomes are in the states that have not expanded. Expansion was available on Jan. 1, 2014. So we have a 10-year real-time experiment in health outcomes, in budget outcomes, in what has happened to the state economy. And we know a couple of things from a national level. More hospitals have closed, mostly rural hospitals, in states that have not expanded than the states that expanded. There are fairly significant health differences now. There were health differences before, but they have been accelerated. 

There are more maternal-health deaths in states that have not expanded, not because the woman may not be eligible for Medicaid but because the hospital closes and now she’s 50 miles away from her birthing center and transportation issues and don’t have gas in the car and whatever. We are losing women having children, which is really shocking in the United States of America. So I think that not only is Medicaid a huge portion — I had a good friend who some of you may know, Brian Schweitzer, who was the former governor of Montana, and Brian used to say what a governor does is pretty easy. We medicate, we educate, we incarcerate, and the rest is chump change. You can find it in the couch, but it— 

Sununu: Well, I disagree with that. Totally different discussion. 

Sebelius: In terms of where the money is. Those are the big chunks of — and Medicaid in most state budgets, it’s a huge chunk of money. So when you talk about potentially $700 billion in cuts to Medicaid, it will blow up state budgets across the country, and it will leave, to Gov. Sununu and Gov. Cooper’s points, literally millions of people uninsured. The estimates out of the House bill — the Senate bill still hasn’t been scored — out of the House bill is 8- to 9 million people, but I think that’s likely to go up with a Senate bill. 

Sununu: I would add, expanded Medicaid has been — we were an expanded Medicaid state. It’s been wonderful. Health outcomes are definitely a lot better. There’s a lot more access to services, and these are, again, the difference in the population, these are able-bodied working adults as opposed to the traditional Medicaid population that deal with either poverty issues or disability and all this other stuff. So it’s a 50-50 versus split on traditional versus 90-10. I don’t have a problem with changes. The way they’re doing it is awful. So as a state, if you want — they are really adamant about dropping it, and it would lead to bad outcomes, there’s no question — I would say, OK, do it over 10 years. We’re going to drop it 5% a year. Allow states to gradually come in, right? Allow states to alter their budgets. No state can alter their budget and take up — in California it might even be a trillion, hundreds of billions of dollars. 

Sebelius: Yeah. 

Sununu: So it’s so much money. So no state can do that. And so obviously you’d have a collapse of the system. It would be terrible to do that, and they’ve taken that off the table. The meta-scam piece is much more complicated, where states tax hospitals, match it with federal funds and send it back to hospitals in terms of uncompensated care. That’s a bad practice that everybody does, so we should keep it. I don’t know a better way to say it. And I say that because New Hampshire was the first one.  

Sebelius: And it’s legal. It’s legal. 

Sununu: We invented it in ’92. It’s legal. It’s fine. It’s become precedent in practice. It’s OK. And so we should keep doing that. And what they’re going to do is lower the amount that states can tax the hospitals and therefore lower the amount that we would get. And that, really, for us — I don’t know how other states use their dollars — we put a large portion of that back to hospitals for that uncompensated population, the ones that truly are unregistered. I don’t mind going after — we should get the cost at some point, right? You all owe $37 trillion, by the way. I hope you know that. So the savings have to come from somewhere, but Washington has to be smart about how to do it, what the actual outcomes are going to be, and how to ratchet it down so you’re not, again, throwing everybody off the cliff. And that’s what this bill would do. It would throw people right off a cliff. 

Cooper: Yeah, I think the answer is absolutely no states can’t afford it. We governors have to balance budgets. The federal government obviously doesn’t. They just continue to raise the debt ceiling, problems in and of itself, but that’s where the funding should come from. I think there are a few billionaires we could tax a little bit more in order to create more funding to do the work that we need to do, but— 

Sununu: There’s a basket at the door if you all want to drop something in on the way out. 

Sebelius: A big basket. 

Cooper: That, too. But I think that if we’re going to rely on the states — what’s happening now, I think, is a sneaky way to do this. I think they have understood that just openly and notoriously telling the states they have to pay more is not going to work and it’s not politically feasible. But what they have done is gone through the back door and created all of this red tape that’s going to end up with people being pushed off who are otherwise eligible. It’s going to end up with states having to make horrible choices, like with SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] benefits, for example. 

In North Carolina, we’ll have a shortfall of about $700 million. Now with SNAP benefits, not only do you feed hungry people who need food, but there’s an economic benefit to our state. It’s like a $1.80 economic benefit generated from $1 of SNAP benefit. But I don’t see my Republican legislature putting in an extra $700 million in SNAP benefits in order to be able to feed hungry people. So the choices that states are going to make are going to be bad, because states are limited as to the decisions that they have to make. And this is going to be really tough, particularly if this Senate bill doesn’t change a whole lot. States are going to have a significant problem. 

Sebelius: All I wanted to say is in addition to the Medicaid issue hitting a big portion of the lower-income working population is a corresponding Affordable Care Act hit that isn’t in the bill, because it’s a tax incentive that will expire at the end of this year. So not acting on the additional premium tax credits for the Affordable Care Act hits almost the same — in a state like Kansas, which has not expanded Medicaid, a lot of that population is in the marketplace plans with an enhanced tax credit. That goes away at the end of the year. So we’re looking at potentially 11 million people in states across this country. 

And no governor has the ability to write a check and say: OK, I’m going to just provide, out of 100% state funds, I’ll help you buy your health insurance. But not having health insurance means you don’t get doctors paid, more hospitals go on —it has a ripple. People can’t take their meds. They can’t go to work. They have mental health issues. It is a really spiraling impact. And as Gov. Cooper and Sununu have said, we have the lowest rate of uninsured Americans right now that we’ve ever had in history, and that could change pretty dramatically. 

Sununu: The only other piece I was going to bring up just to highlight the cowardice of Washington, D.C.: Why are they focusing on Medicaid, but no one wants to talk Medicare? Well, it’s easy because states, right? Because they can blame states. Well, we made changes, but it’s up to the states whether they want to keep it or not, right? And they’re going to blame the governors and blame what’s happening at the state level, whether expanded Medicaid survives or not. Meanwhile, it’s the crisis that they’re creating. Then you have Medicare, which, by the way, everyone agrees there’s massive waste and fraud and abuse, and that system needs a massive overhaul because that system, by the way, is going bankrupt, right? It’ll be insolvent in nine or 10 years, something like that, right?. But no one wants to talk about that piece, right?. But that’s an integral piece because both those left and right hands of Medicaid and Medicare drive the non-private sector of health care, right? Which creates not a competitive — we can get into the whole reducing competition in a free market in health care to actually get costs down. 

But it’s really hard as a governor, I think, and I think I speak for all 50, to hear Washington talk about all these massive cuts they want to make to Medicaid, but they’re not going to touch Medicare, because that’s a federal program. And so they have to do both in some way, and they have to do it in a smart way, in an even-keeled way. It has to take place over time. It has to look at population health outcomes. But they don’t think like that. They just don’t. They look at top-line numbers, top-line issues. Maybe they’ll get to the bill in a few weeks. Maybe they won’t. They’ll be on vacation most of the summer. It’ll be very frustrating. Even if it passes in the Senate, it won’t even — what? September, maybe? Maybe they take it up in September? 

Rovner: You don’t think they’re going to make it by July Fourth? 

Sununu: The Senate might, but then they vacation. They’ve got to go on vacation. So isn’t that the frustration we all have? We have a major crisis here. Here’s an idea. Do your jobs. 

Sebelius: Just a small addendum, too. 

Sununu: Sorry. I’m frustrated. 

Sebelius: Gov. Sununu, because he’s the baby of the group, if you can tell, and I’m part of the gray tsunami. Part of the reason Medicare is running out of money is at least when my parents were involved in Medicare, there were six or seven workers for every retiree. We’re now down to two. And I want to know those two workers. I got to tell you, I’m at a point in my life I’d like to bring them home with me, feed them on a regular basis, get them — but we have an aging country. We have many more people enrolled in Medicare right now than we have had in the past and fewer in the workforce. So the math, you’re right, is daunting going forward, but it isn’t, I would suggest, massive waste, fraud, and abuse as much as a changing demographic in our population. 

Sununu: I was quoting [Rep. Nancy] Pelosi on that one. Sorry. 

Rovner: I want to pick up on something. For those who were not there last night for the Affordable Care Act session, one of the things that no one brought up is that in the intervening 15 years since the Affordable Care Act passed, I think, every single one of the funding mechanisms to help offset the cost of the bill has been repealed by Congress. The individual mandate is gone. Most of the industry-specific taxes are gone. The Cadillac tax that was going to try and deter very generous health plans is gone. States don’t have this kind of opportunity to say, We’re going to pass something that pays for itself, and then get rid of the pay force, right? 

Cooper: That’s a really good point. And right now the Affordable Care Act is working to insure a lot of people, but it’s continuing along with all of our system that’s set up to drive up the cost. And I know we’re going to talk a little bit about cost in just a minute, but again, I agree with Gov. Sununu — that’s the coward’s way out. All of the lobbyists come with their special interests who are paying something and should be paying something, but they get it removed piece by piece by piece. And then the only way to get it is from the very people who need it the most. And they’re the ones who end up suffering. And I think it was mentioned last night — $14,600 a person in the United States for investment in health care. That’s wrong on many levels. 

Rovner: So let’s talk about cost. Who is responsible for controlling the cost of health care? Both sides point at each other. And as I mentioned at the opening, we don’t really have a system, but we obviously have the federal government responsible for a lot of health care bills and the state government’s responsible for a lot of health care bills. So at what point does somebody step up and say, We really need to get this under control? 

Sununu: I’ll throw a couple things in there. The average cost to spend overnight, in America, in a hospital: $32,000 — a night. That’s insane, right? That’s insane. And so the argument that I always have is, let’s look at the cost to stay in a hospital. And I know this is going to seem far afield, but it’s all part of health care. What I pay my average social worker — which, by the way, we need a lot more social workers. And if a social worker’s making 50 grand a year, they’re lucky doing it and God bless them. They’re doing incredibly hard work. So why do we have a system that is driving these costs here, that haven’t gotten any of those costs under control, still make it really difficult to pay the workforce? And I think workforce is a huge part of this crisis. 

Rovner: Next question. 

Sununu: Yeah, that’s another the question, especially the social workers and whatnot and generationally and nurses and all that to get them in there. If you don’t have the workforce, it’s not going to work. So the disparity of costs. And then there are certain aspects, let’s talk pharmaceuticals, where you are all, we are all effectively paying massive costs on pharmaceuticals because we’re subsidizing the rest of the world, right? Because they’re developed here. There’s massive cost controls in Europe, so we pay a huge amount of money. And again, I’m going to bring up Trump only because he brought up the “fat shot.” Is that what he called it? The other—? Yeah. The fact that Ozempic here is $1,200 but a hundred bucks in Europe. Why? Because they have cost controls there, and our fairly unregulated system forces those types of costs on the private sector here. 

So I’m a free-market guy. I’m always a believer that the more private sector investment you get and the more, I’ll just call it competition, especially smaller competition, can create better outcomes. But we just don’t have that. There’s no private sector. There’s no competition in health care, because so much of it is driven by Medicaid and Medicare. So I would just argue that you have to look at finding the balance here in the U.S., but don’t forget there’s other issues across the rest of the world that are affecting your costs as well. 

Cooper: And I’ll give you two things. One that you don’t do to affect the cost issue. You may be tempted to reduce your budget to throw people off of coverage, but more people without coverage increases costs significantly, and we all pay for it when you have indigent patients going into those hospitals. They go to the private sector first, which is why a lot of businesses in North Carolina supported our expansion of Medicaid, because 44% of small businesses don’t even provide coverage for their customers. So we should not be kicking people off coverage. In order to reduce costs, we need to cover more people. And the second thing we should do, and this we say a lot here and it was said last night, but collectively, if we can come together and make these short-term investments for long-term gain on primary care and prevention, that is the best way to lower costs to make sure people are healthier. Because our system is geared to spend all the money when it is most expensive and not when it is least expensive and can do the most good to delay that spending at the other end. 

And there are a lot of ways that we can approach this, but what frustrates me about Washington is that you don’t see any real effort there to concentrate on prevention and primary care and making those investments that we know — we know — not only save lives but save money and reduce the cost of health care. And I think that can be a bipartisan way that we can come together to deal with this. Things you mentioned, certainly driving up the cost, but that is a basic thing that we know will make people healthier and will cost the system less. 

Sebelius: I don’t think there’s any disagreement in all of us and probably all of you that we pay way too much for health care per capita. And we have pretty indifferent health results. We have great care for some of the people some of the time. But in terms of universally good care for people across this country, regardless of where you live, it just doesn’t happen. It isn’t delivered, regardless of the fact that we spend much more money. I would say that it’s beginning to have some impact, but a couple things occurred as part of the framework of the Affordable Care Act and other changes at the D.C. level. First, Medicare began to issue value-based payment contracts. They were nonexistent before 2010, and that just means you begin to pay for outcomes. Not just doing more stuff makes more money, but what happens to the patient? Is it a good recovery? Do you come back to the hospital too soon? Is somebody following up? 

So that has shifted now to most Medicare payments are really in a value-based payment outcome. And that has made a difference. I think it makes a difference in patient outcomes. It makes a difference across the board. There has been some change, not nearly enough, in primary care reimbursement. We need a whole lot more of that. Specialty care pays so much more than primary care, and it discourages young docs from going into a primary care field, a gerontology field, a pediatric field. We desperately need folks. I’d say third that a lot of hospitals, and particularly in rural areas, to your point, Gov. Sununu, are beginning to look at a range of services, not just, as we call it, butts in beds, but they’re running long-term care services. They’re running a lot of outpatient. 

And we just had a session on rural health care, and the amount of outpatient care provided by rural hospitals is now up to about 80%. So actually they’re trying to do prevention, trying to meet people where they are. We have to keep some support systems under those hospitals, because if their only payment is how many bed spaces you fill per night, it’s counterintuitive to have hospitals doing prevention and then their bottom line is affected. But I think Gov. Cooper is just absolutely right on target. There was a huge prevention fund for the first time in the Affordable Care Act. It went to states and cities, not to some federal government. It was called, for years, a big slush fund. But it has engaged, I think, a lot of people, a lot of mayors, a lot of governors in everything from bike trails to healthy eating to scratch kitchens in schools, to doing a range of reintroducing physical education back into education classes. But we need to do a lot more of that. 

Sununu: Can I ask a question? Were you guys a managed Medicaid state? 

Cooper: Yeah, we are now. 

Sununu: Were you at the time? So for those who know, maybe 40 states, 41, 42 states? 

Sebelius: I think it’s almost 45. 

Sununu: So the states, I don’t know when this started. It had started right around the time I got in New Hampshire. We hired a couple large companies to basically manage our Medicaid. But to the Gov. Cooper’s point, theoretically you bring those companies in to look at the whole health of the individual and more on the prevention services, more on that side as opposed to just fee-for-service, fee-for-service, right? Where you get inefficiency and waste and all that sort of thing. It’s worked, kind of. I think most of the models still have a lot of fee-for-service built into them. And so it’s not quite there. You have these very large companies, the Centenes and some of these other really, really large companies that are effectively deciding whether — they’re insurance companies that are deciding whether someone should get care or not, or that service is required or not. 

Usually it works, but obviously we have a lot of tragic stories of families getting rejected for service or things like that. So, I think if given more flexibility that it could theoretically work, but I think the managed-care model is mostly working but not great. But it was designed to deal with exactly what Gov. Cooper’s talking about, the whole health of the individual, more preventive care. Don’t wait for the person on Medicaid to lose all their teeth — right? — because they’re a meth addict and they have massive heart and liver issues, right? Get them those prevention services early on because they’re into a recovery program and the whole health of the individual exponentially saves you money and increases their health outcomes and all that. But if you have somebody looking at that from a holistic perspective, theoretically it comes out better. I don’t know. You probably have a better perspective than anyone whether you think it really has worked or not. 

Sebelius: Well, I think it’s beginning to work and it works better in some places than others. But I think that the federal programs, arguably both Medicare and Medicaid, provide, if you will, the most efficient health insurance going. Private plans, in all due deference to your market competition, run anywhere from 15 to 20% overhead. Medicare runs at a 2% overhead. Medicaid is about that same thing. So delivery of health benefits on an efficient basis is really at the public sector, less at the private sector, which is why we were hoping to have a public option in the Affordable Care Act to get that market competition. Medicare Advantage provides market competition now to fee-for-service. And some of the companies do a great job with holistic care. Some of the companies do a really bad job, far more denials, far more issues of people not being able to get the benefits they need. So it is a balanced thing. 

Sununu: And smaller states, we had a trouble because we couldn’t find many companies that wanted to come into a small state like New Hampshire, because the population wasn’t going to be huge. We have the lowest population on Medicaid in the country. So if I got a third company and maybe they get 35-, 40,000 people, what’s the risk pool of those individuals? They might be like, Nah, it’s not going to work for us, right? So the smaller states, because they’re managed at the state level, have challenges. We tried to actually partner with Vermont and Maine. 

Sebelius: Regional. 

Sununu: Right? Regional opportunities. The feds wouldn’t let us do that. Very frustrating. But not you. 

Sebelius: I did a waiver for New Hampshire to have a regional program. 

Sununu: No, I blame Alex for that. That’s another thing — I’ve yelled at Alex for that for years. 

Sebelius: Maybe the next guys took it away. 

Rovner: So we keep talking about people getting care or people not getting care. We haven’t talked a lot about the people who deliver the care. Obviously the health care workforce is a continuing frustration in this country, as we know. We have too many specialists, not enough primary care doctors, not enough primary care available in rural areas. What’s the various responsibility of the federal government and the states to try and ensure that — obviously states need to worry about workforce development. Isn’t that one of the things that states do? 

Sununu: All right, I’ll kick things off because I’ll say something really liberal that you’ll all love. Do you know what the key is? Honestly? It’s an immigration reform bill. 

Sebelius: I was just— 

Sununu: It’s immigration reform. Because this generation is not having kids, right? We’re losing population. So just the math on bodies, if you will, in terms of entering any workforce is going to be challenging as the United States goes forward. More and more if you look at the number of people, social workers, people in recovery, MLADCs [master licensed alcohol and drug counselors] in recovery programs, nurses, whatever it is, those tend to be more people that are born outside of this country, that come to this country. They go to nursing school — whatever it is they become, it’s great. 

But until we get a good immigration reform bill that opens those doors bigger and better and with more regulation on top of them, but open those doors, I think it’s going to be a challenge. It’s not necessarily an issue for the government to — government can’t create people, right? Maybe we can incentivize more schools and that sort of thing. And I think most governors do that. We put in nursing schools in our university system and all that, but you still have to fill the seats and you still have to encourage the young people to want to get into those types of programs. 

Sebelius: I think the government at the state and local level and federal level can do more. More residency programs. The federal government can actually move the needle on some of the payment systems for specialty vs. primary care. And we haven’t moved fast enough on that. I think that’s no doubt. What’s pending right now with ICE [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] raids all over the country and people being terrified to come here or stay here is going to make the workforce issue significantly worse. Home health care workers, folks in nursing homes, people who are LPNs [licensed practical nurses] are now being discouraged from either coming or staying. And I think we’re in for an even bigger shock. 

A lot of folks got burned out in covid. There’s no question that we lost vital health care workers. We need to be on a really massive rebuilding program, and instead we have put up a big red flag. And a lot of people who are here who are providing care, who may have a family member or somebody else who is not at legal status, and they’re gone or they’re not going to go to work or they’re not going to provide those services. And I think we’re about to hit even a bigger wall. 

Cooper: You’ve mentioned compensation. Obviously gearing more toward the preventive side, the primary care side is important. I also think one thing that’s working some, and I think we could do more, obviously requires funding, but providing scholarship money for doctors, nurses, others who agree to give a certain number of years of service in primary care and particularly in rural areas. We’re seeing some of that work. There are a lot of people who feel compelled. You mentioned, when I was up at the Chan School at Harvard and I was teaching a graduate school class, and I love public health people because they care so passionately about others and they want to get in this field. Making it financially viable for them to be able to complete the mission that they feel in their heart, I think, is something that I think is worthy of greater investment. 

Sununu: To that point, I think it’s a great idea and it definitely works. But even before that, just look at what it costs to go to a four-year college now, right? I’m a parent. I have a 20-, 19-, and a 12-year-old. So we’re all absolutely looking at what college costs, and I don’t mind picking on a few of them. Like NYU [New York University], what, a $100,000? So my daughter’s not going to be a nurse, even think about being a nurse, because questioning whether she even goes to college, right? Because she might go to take community college classes instead or do something else. So, or she’s got to find that other pathway. So the initial steps to getting to be a doctor or higher-level primary care physician even, there’s a huge barrier before the barrier. 

And so I think we just need to think holistically about how young people and why they’re making certain choices, and the financial aspects of going to college, I think, over the next 10 years are going to really blow up and create a massive problem. And sometimes it’s very healthy, right?. Sometimes it’s great that young people are thinking differently. It’s not, Go to a four-year college or you don’t have value. No, they think totally different. They know they can have a great life path in other areas, but that postsecondary first-four-year barrier right now is just, we’re just scratching the surface of how big it will be in terms of preventing them from entering the four-year. 

Rovner: We’re running out of time. I do want to let the audience— 

Sebelius: Can I just— 

Rovner: Yes. 

Sebelius: One thing to Gov. Sununu’s point. So there is the national commissioned health corps, which does pay off medical debt for nursing students blah blah blah. What we found, though, is a lot of people couldn’t even get to the medical debt, because they can’t get their college paid off. They can’t get into medical school. So moving that to a much more upstream, into high school, into early college, is the way we get— 

Sununu: Certificate programs in high school, like pre-nursing programs, social-work programs in your vo-tech schools — huge opportunities there. You get like a 14- or 15-year-old excited about helping someone. You’re giving them a certificate. They could enter the workforce at 19 in some ways. And then the workforce is helping them pay off that schooling or expanding those community— 

Sebelius: Or sending them on. 

Sununu: Yeah. There’s all these other ways to do it. So I think that’s the gateway that we have to keep opening. 

Sebelius: It’s got to be earlier though. 

Sununu: Much earlier. 

Rovner: All right, we have time for a couple of questions. I see a lot of hands. Wait until a microphone gets to you. OK. 

Stephanie Diaz: Hi, and thank you for this amazing conversation. My name is Stephanie Diaz. I’m with a corporate venture fund attached to a health system. Really thrilled for this conversation, and where it ended on workforce is really compelling. The Big Beautiful Bill and the Senate version has a cap on financial aid for degrees like medical programs. Considering what you just said, what are the goals of legislation like that and what can— 

Sebelius: No idea. 

Diaz: Why? 

Cooper: Save money. 

Sununu: Yeah, yeah. 

Cooper: Finding a way. 

Rovner: What would the impact be? I think that’s probably a fairer question. 

Sununu: Well, in this field would be devastating, right? I would imagine. I don’t know what the cap is. I don’t know what they’re basing that on. I don’t know if they’re— 

Diaz: $150,000. And we know that a medical degree costs, well, more than $150,000 for a student. 

Rovner: I think they’ve said the goal is that they want to push — they want to force down tuition. 

Sununu: Well, the government forced up tuition. That’s a whole different conversation. 

Cooper: They’re going to force out med students is what they’re going to do. 

Sununu: Look, I’ll be the devil’s advocate$150,000 for primary care, for example. If you’re a primary care — any medical degree, yeah. I don’t know what the thought process is other than they’re probably saying, well, these doctors, once you get your degree, you’re making a heck of a lot of money. These guys can pay stuff off. Let’s move that tuition or scholarship money to the social workers, to the MLADCs, to the community colleges, because that’s where you find more low-income families that can’t pay even $7- or $10,000 at a community college. That’s the real barrier. Low-income families as opposed to, look, giving $150,000, that’s a lot of money. And if these guys — if there’s anyone in America that can actually pay off college debt, it’s a doctor. So I’m being a little bit devil’s advocate because I don’t know the heart of the program, but that’s a heck of a lot of money and that’s a lot more tuition and scholarship funds than any other profession in the country. So I think it’s just about finding a balance. I am being a little devil’s advocate because I don’t know the details. 

Rovner: All right, I think I have time for one more question. 

Speaker: I’m a CFO at an ACO [accountable care organization] in Nebraska, and if I have to brag, our per cost, per beneficiaries, under $10,000 per reported on the latest 2023 numbers. Can you speak to the administration’s thought on value-based care contracting? And I know in Project 2025 it was referenced that — you’re laughing. 

Sununu: No, I hate hearing those words. 

Speaker: I did dig into that. And it is talked about to be attacked, value-based care contracts moving forward. So I was hoping that you could speak to that, maybe the intention of this administration, so thanks. 

Cooper: You want to talk about the intent of this administration? 

Sebelius: I’m not going to speak about this administration. You can speak about that. 

Sununu: No, I have no idea what the intent was. And every time I hear Project 2025 I shudder because it’s like, ah, I hate that thing. But, I don’t know why. 

Speaker: No not why but for behind the scenes do you think there’s still support for— 

Sebelius: I can tell you it’s one of the areas I think there’s huge bipartisan support inside Congress. So folks have come after it often from the health system because they really didn’t — they’d much rather, in some cases, have the fee-for-service payment. If I operate, I want to get my money. If I’m an anesthesiologist, I want to get my money. So value-based care really began to shake up the health system itself, health providers. I don’t know what this administration intends to do, but I know Congress has really wrapped their arms around value-based care and is really pushing the administrative agencies inside D.C. to continue and go faster. Bundled care for an operation where you put all the providers together and look at outcome. A lot of things that the ACOs are doing, congratulations. But that notion didn’t even exist before 2010, and I think it is absolutely on a trajectory now that it’s not going to go back. 

Sununu: And I’ll add this: As kooky as your successor is, the current HHS secretary, because he’s kooky, he’s not on board, either. So I think, again, regardless of what the administration wants, I don’t think that— 

Sebelius: Oh, not on board with getting rid of that. 

Sununu: Yeah, exactly. Not on board with getting— 

Sebelius: I just wanted to clarify. 

Sununu: I don’t think there’s going to be changes. I don’t think Congress is there. I don’t think the current secretary is there. I don’t know where the current secretary is on a lot of different things. He seems to change his mind quite often, but just don’t eat the red dye and you’ll be fine. 

Sebelius: But it’s one of the few places I would say— 

Cooper: Is there anything in the BBB [Big Beautiful Bill] on that? 

Rovner: We are officially out of time before Gov. Sununu gets himself into more trouble. I want to thank the panel so much and thank you to the audience, and enjoy your time at Aspen. 

OK. That’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our producer, Francis Ying, holding down the fort in Washington, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, here on the ground with me in Aspen. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, all one word. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Or on Bluesky, @julierovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy. 

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