[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello from KFF Health News and WAMU public radio in Washington, D.C. Welcome to What the Health? I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest reporters covering Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, March 12, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. 

Today we are joined via videoconference by Shefali Luthra of the 19th. 

Shefali Luthra: Hello. 

Rovner: Anna Edney of Bloomberg News. 

Anna Edney: Hi, everybody. 

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico Magazine. 

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody. 

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with Andy Schneider of Georgetown University, who will try to explain how the federal government’s fraud crackdown on blue-state Medicaid programs is something completely different from any fraud-fighting effort we’ve seen before. But first, this week’s news — and some of last week’s. 

Let’s start at the Department of Health and Human Services, where I think it’s safe to say Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr. is not having a great week. The secretary reportedly had to have his rotator cuff surgically repaired on Tuesday. It’s not clear if he injured it during one of his famous video workouts. But it is clear, at least according to a new survey from the University of Pennsylvania’s Annenberg Center, that the American public is not buying what he’s selling when it comes to policy. According to the survey, public trust in HHS agencies, which already took a dive during the pandemic, has fallen even more since Kennedy took over the department. Although, interestingly, public trust in career HHS officials is higher than it is for their political leaders. And trust in outside professional health organizations, places like the American Heart Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, is higher than for any of the government entities. 

Perhaps related to that is another piece of HHS news from this week. The FDA [Food and Drug Administration] approved a label change for the drug leucovorin, which Secretary Kennedy last fall very aggressively touted as a potential treatment for autism. But the drug wasn’t approved to treat autism. Rather, the label changes to treat a rare genetic condition. Kennedy bragged about leucovorin, by the way, at the same press conference that President [Donald] Trump urged pregnant women not to take Tylenol, which has not been shown to contribute to the rise in autism. Maybe it’s fair to say the public is paying attention to the news and that helps explain the results of this Annenberg Center survey? 

Luthra: Maybe. I was just thinking, we do know that Tylenol prescriptions for people who are pregnant did go down, right? There’s research that shows, after that press conference, behaviors did change. And so to your point, it’s clear there is a lot of confusion, and confusion maybe breeds mistrust. But I don’t know that we can necessarily say that American voters and the public at large are very obviously informed as much as they are perhaps disenchanted by things that seem as if they were told would restore trust and make things clearer and in fact have not done so. 

Rovner: That’s a fair assessment. Anna. 

Edney: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of overpromising and underdelivering, and that can kind of create this issue where this administration — and RFK Jr. has been doing this as well — kind of is making these decisions from the top, rather than having these normal conversations with the career scientists and things like that, where the public can kind of follow along on why the scientific decisions are being made if they so choose to, or at least have an idea that there was a discussion out there. And that’s not happening. So that’s not something that’s creating a lot of trust. I think people are seeing that as unscientific and chaotic. 

Rovner: I was particularly interested in one of the findings in the survey, is that Dr. Fauci, Dr. Tony Fauci, who was sort of the bête noire of the pandemic, has a higher approval rating than either RFK Jr. or some of his top deputies. Joanne, I see you nodding. 

Kenen: Yeah that was so stri— I mean, it’s still not high. It was, I believe it was — I’m looking for my note — but I think was 54%, which is not great. But it was better than Dr. [Mehmet] Oz [head of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services]. It was better than Kennedy. It was better than a bunch of people. So, but it also shows that half the country still doesn’t trust him. It was a really interesting survey, but the gaps in trust in credible science are still significant. What was interesting is the declining trust in our government officials in health care, but there’s still, nationally, the U.S. population, there’s still a lot of skepticism of science and public health. Maybe not as bad as it was, but still pretty bad. 

Luthra: And Julie, you alluded to these famous push-up and workout videos. And part of what you’re getting at — right? — is that the communications that we see are targeted toward a not necessarily very large audience. It is these people who are hyper-online, in particular internet spaces and communities, and that’s somewhat divorced from most people and how they live their lives. And when you focus your message and you’re campaigning on this very particular slice, it’s just a lot easier to lose sight of where people are and what they want from their government and what they will actually appreciate. 

Rovner: It’s true. The online America is very separate from the rest of America, which is a whole lot bigger. Well— 

Kenen: And there’s also the young people who probably aren’t in these surveys who, teenagers, who are getting a lot of information on TikTok about supplements and raw milk. And the young men and the teenage boys and the supplements is a big deal, and that’s online. And also we have been seeing for a while, but I think it’s probably creeping up, the recommendations about psychedelics. So there’s all this stuff out there that isn’t going to be picked up by that poll. But yes, it was an interesting poll. 

Rovner: All right. Well, meanwhile over at the Food and Drug Administration, in-again out-again in-again vaccine chief Vinay Prasad is apparently out again, or will be as of later this spring. I feel like Prasad’s very rocky tenure has been kind of a microcosm for the difficulties this administration has had working with career scientists at FDA and elsewhere, at HHS. Anna, what made him so controversial? 

Edney: Well, I think, Prasad was an FDA critic before he came to the agency. And so essentially, when he was out in public, particularly during covid, but there were even criticisms he had before that. He was criticizing these career scientists at the agency. And so he got there, and the way he appeared to operate was that he knew best and he didn’t need to talk to any of these people that had been there, some for decades, and that was getting him in a lot of trouble. But he was being defended and protected by FDA Commissioner Martin Makary, and he really supported Prasad, and he called him a genius and wanted him to stay on. So the first time Prasad left, he convinced him to come back. And now this time, I think, things maybe just went a bridge too far when there was sort of this behind-the-scenes but very public fight with a company trying to make a rare-disease drug. And this is something that, particularly, several senators really, really hate, is when the FDA is getting in the way of a rare-disease drug getting to market, because they don’t think that that’s something the agency should be trying to do unless the drug is maybe wholly unsafe. But they think anyone should be able to try it. And so when this exploded and FDA officials were and HHS officials were behind the scenes, but very publicly, calling this company a liar, it was just a bridge too far. 

Rovner: Well, and he, this was, this incredibly unusual phone call with reporters in which he tried to not be quoted by name, but kind of hard when the head of the agency, or the head of the center at FDA is basically trashing a company, trying to do it on background. Was that kind of the last straw? 

Edney: Yeah, I think so. And sort of an aside on that. I’m curious how that phone call even was allowed to be set up and called. Because, it’s not like he did it on his own. There were, there was an infrastructure around him that helped him set that up. So I’m curious about why that even went down, but I think that was definitely what pushed him out the door. You know, this company wanted to get this drug approved. The FDA had said, No, not unless you do this extremely difficult trial, which the company said would require drilling holes in people’s heads, for what they were trying to get approved, and that it would be a placebo, essentially, for some of those patients, even when you get a hole drilled in your head, and this could be a 10-hour sham surgery, is what the company said. And then Prasad comes out and says: No, they’re lying. That definitely could be a half-hour. No big deal. And I just think that there were senators frustrated with this, the White House not wanting to see another thing blow up over rare-disease drugs, because that has, there have been a lot of issues at FDA under his tenure, of just drugs not being able to get to market. Or having issues with vaccines that have been years in development not being able to get even reviewed, and then that being reversed. So it was just, that was kind of the last straw. 

Rovner: And of course President Trump himself has been a big proponent of this whole Right to Try effort, that it should be easier for people with, particularly with terminal diseases to be able to try drugs that may or may not help. Joanne, you want to add something. 

Kenen: Also wasn’t he still, Prasad, still living in California and running up really huge travel bills and— 

Rovner: Yes. 

Kenen: —not being at the FDA very much, at a time when everybody else has been forced to come back to work? So, but I do confess that I keep looking at my phone to check if he’s still out or is he already back again. 

Rovner: Right. 

Kenen: I’m really not totally convinced that this is the end of Prasad, but yeah. 

Rovner: Yeah, I was not kidding when I said on-again off-again on-again off-again. All right. Well, moving over to the National Institutes of Health, which also has a director that’s doing more than one job in more than one place. I know there’s so much news that it’s hard to keep track of it all, but I do think it’s important to continue to follow things that look to be settled, like funding for the NIH, which Congress actually increased in the spending bill that passed at the end of January. To that end, a shout-out to our podcast panelist Sandhya Raman, formerly of CQ, now at Bloomberg, for reporting that grant funding that still pays for most of the nation’s basic biomedical research is still being held up. This is months after it was ordered resumed by courts and appropriated by Congress. 

Shout-out as well to my KFF Health News colleagues Rachana Pradhan and Katheryn Houghton for their project on the people and research projects that have been disrupted by all the cuts at NIH, as well as new bureaucratic hurdles put in place. I feel like if there weren’t so much else going on, what’s happening at basically the economic and health engine of NIH would be getting much, much, much more attention, particularly because of the continuing brain drain with researchers moving to other countries and students choosing different careers rather than becoming researchers. I wonder if this sort of drip, drip, drip at NIH is going to turn into a very long-term hole that’s going to be very difficult to fill. A lot of these things have years- if not decades-long runways. These great scientific achievements start somewhere, and it looks like they’re just sort of pulling out the whole starting part. 

Kenen: It’s already affecting the pipeline. In graduate schools, many schools fund their PhD candidates, and it’s NIH money, or partly NIH money. It’s different — I’m not an expert in every single school’s support systems for PhD candidates, but I do know that the pipeline has been shrunken in some fields at some schools, and that’s been reported on widely. And there’s been a lot of coverage about years and years of research. You can’t just restart a multiyear, complicated clinical trial or research project. Once you stop it, you’re losing everything to date, right? You can’t just sort of say, Oh, I’ll put it on hold for a couple of years and resume it. You can’t do that. So we’ve already reached some kind of a critical point. It’s just a matter of how much worse it gets, or whether the ship begins to stabilize in any way going forward. But there’s already damage. 

Rovner: I say, are you guys as surprised as I am, though, that this isn’t — the NIH has been this sort of bipartisan jewel that everybody has supported over the decades that I’ve been covering it, and now it’s basically being dismantled in front of our eyes, and nobody’s saying very much about it. 

Kenen: It’s also an engine of economic growth. You see different ROI [return on investment] numbers when you look at NIH, but I think the lowest number you hear is two and a half dollars of benefit for every dollar we invest. And I’ve seen reports up to $7. I don’t know what the magic number is, but this is an engine of economic growth in the United States. This is basic biomedical research that the private sector or the academic sector cannot do. It has to come from the government. And I don’t think any of us have really gotten our heads around — why harm the NIH when it is bipartisan, it is economically successful, and it has humanitarian value. It’s the basis. The drug companies develop the drug and bring it to the market. But that basic, basic, earlier what’s called bench science, that’s funded by the NIH. 

Rovner: I know. It’s a mystery. Well, adding to RFK Jr.’s bad week are the growing divisions within his base, the Make America Healthy Again movement. While the White House, seeing that the public doesn’t really support MAHA’s anti-vaccine positions, is trying to get HHS to tone it down, there was a major MAHA meetup just blocks from the White House this week, with sessions urging a complete end to the childhood vaccine schedule and the removal of all vaccines from the market, quote, until they can be proven “safe and effective.” By the way, most of them have been already. Meanwhile, lots of MAHA followers are still angry that the White House is supporting the continuing production of glyphosate, the weed killer sold commercially as Roundup. Democrats, according to Politico, are trying to exploit the divisions in the MAHA movement, which leads to the question: Will MAHA be a net plus or a net minus for this fall’s midterm elections? On the one hand, I think Trump appointed Kennedy because he was hoping that the MAHA movement would be a boost to turnout. On the other hand, MAHA seems pretty split right now. 

Edney: Well, I think that’s the million-dollar question, is which way they’re going to swing if they swing at all. And it’s hard to say right now, because I think they are angry at certain aspects of things this administration is doing, the two things you mentioned, on Roundup and on vaccines, kind of telling RFK to kind of talk a little bit less about those. But will they be able to then vote for Democrats instead? I think, it’s only March, so it’s so difficult to say what will happen between now and then. I think there’s still things that the health secretary could do on food that he’s talked about, that could draw attention away from that anger, that might make many of them happy. I think there were some things he kind of started doing early in his term that hasn’t been talked about as much. And also, I think there’s still the prospect of Casey Means becoming surgeon general — or not — out there, and that’s kind of a big piece of this. If she is to get into the administration, and that is sort of up in the air right now, then that could kind of give them something else to focus on, because she is a large part of this playbook of the MAHA movement. 

Rovner: That’s right. And we are waiting to see sort of if she can get the votes even to get out of committee, much less get to the floor, see whether we’re going to have, as some are saying, the first surgeon general who does not have an active license to practice medicine. Shefali, you wanted to add something. 

Luthra: No, I just think we’ve talked about this before on the podcast, that the food stuff is much more popular than the vaccine stuff. The vaccine components of MAHA remain very unpopular. It’s difficult to really see or say sort of what the White House can do on food in a sustained, focused way, without going off-script, that is also popular. But I think to Anna’s point, it’s just so hard to say to what extent this ultimately matters in November, because there are just so many concerns right now. People can’t afford their health insurance, and gas prices are going up. And I just think we have to wait and see to what extent people are voting based on food policy. 

Rovner: Yeah, well, we will see. All right, we’re going to take a quick break. We will be right back. 

OK, turning to another Trump administration priority, fighting fraud. This week, the administration accused another Democratic-led state, New York, of not policing Medicaid fraud forcefully enough. This comes after the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services said it will withhold hundreds of millions of dollars from Minnesota, which our guest, Andy Schneider, will talk about at more length. Minnesota, by the way, last week sued the federal government over its Medicaid efforts. So that fight will continue for a while. But it’s not just blue states, and it’s not just Medicaid. In something I didn’t have on my bingo card, this administration is also going after fraud in the Medicare Advantage program, which has long been a Republican darling. 

Last week, CMS banned the Medicare Advantage plan operated by Elevance Health, which has nearly 2 million Medicare patients currently enrolled, from adding any new enrollees starting March 31, for what the agency described as, quote, “substantial and persistent noncompliance with Medicare Advantage risk adjustment data.” And on Tuesday, the congressional Joint Economic Committee reported that overpayments to those Medicare Advantage plans raised premiums by an estimated $200 per Medicare enrollee annually — and that’s all Medicare enrollees, not just those in the private Medicare Advantage plans. Is this the end of the honeymoon for Medicare Advantage? Joanne, you were there with me when Republicans were pushing this. 

Kenen: I’ve been surprised, as you have, Julie, because basically Medicare Advantage has been the darling, and it is popular with people. It’s grown and grown and grown, not because the government forced people in. It has good marketing and some benefits for the younger, healthier post-65 population, gyms and things like that. But — and vision and dental, which are a big deal. But we’ve also seen a backlash, in some ways, because there’s the prior authorization issues in Medicare Advantage have gotten a lot of attention the last couple of years. But not just am I surprised by sort of the swing that we’re hearing about generally. I’m surprised by Dr. Oz, because when he ran for Senate a couple years ago in Pennsylvania, and much of his public persona has been really, really, really gung-ho, pro Medicare Advantage. 

And yet, some of you were at or, like me, watched the live stream of — he did a very interesting, thoughtful, and, I’ve mentioned this at least one time before, hourlong conversation with a lot of Q&A at the Aspen Institute here in D.C. a couple of months ago. And one of the questions was someone said: Dr. Oz, you’ve just turned 65. Are you doing Medicare Advantage, or are you doing traditional Medicare? And the expected answer for me was, well, I knew that he’s on government insurance now. So he, you have to, at 65 you have to go into Medicare Advanta— Medicare A, whether you — that’s automatic. That’s the hospital part. But you have the choice. But if you’re still working and getting insurance or government — he’s on a government plan. He doesn’t have to do that. But he actually, and he pointed that out, but the next sentence really surprised me, because he said: I don’t know. My wife and I are still talking about that. And I thought that was A) a very honest answer. He didn’t have to even say. But it was also, it just was interesting to me that after all that Rah-rah Medicare Advantage we were hearing about, his own personal choice was, Not sure if that one’s right for me. So — 

Rovner: I was going to say, I feel like the Republicans are sort of twisting right now between Medicare Advantage, which they’ve always pushed — they want to privatize Medicare because they don’t like government health insurance — and then there’s the current populist push against big insurance companies, because, of course, all those Medicare Advantage plans belong to those big insurance companies that Republicans are suddenly saying are too big and getting too much money. So they’re sort of caught between trying to have it both ways. I’ll be interested to see how they come down. One of the things that did strike me, though, even before Dr. Oz sort of started his little crusade against Medicare Advantage, was, I think it was at Kennedy’s confirmation hearing that Sen. Bill Cassidy was suddenly questioning Medicare Advantage. That was, I think, the first Republican I saw to like, Oh. That made me raise my eyebrows. And I think since then, I’ve kind of seen why. 

Kenen: The populist talk against insurance companies, not giving money to insurance companies, is part of the Republican — and, specifically, President Trump’s — desire to not extend the ACA, the Affordable Care Act, enhanced subsidies. That was the basic: Well, we’re not going to do this, because we’re just throwing money at these insurance companies. And we don’t want to do that. We want to empower the patients. That was the, I’m not, and the missing piece of that argument is: Yes, the ACA subsidies go to insurance companies. However, all of us are benefiting in some way or other from government policies that benefit insurance companies. The tax breaks our employers get. The tax breaks we get for our insurance. And then the biggie, of course, is Medicare Advantage. 

We are paying Medicare Advantage more than we are paying traditional Medicare. So Medicare Advantage is private insurance companies, and the government has been just sending them lots and lots of money for years. So I’m not sure it’s — this Medicare Advantage thing is just bubbling up, and we’re not really sure how this plays out. But I think that the rhetoric against insurance companies is the rhetoric against the ACA. 

Rovner: Oh, it is. 

Kenen: Rather that hasn’t yet been connected to the Medicare Advantage. I think they’re, yes, we all know they’re connected. But I think the political debate, it’s not Medicare Advantage is bad because insurance companies are bad. It’s the ACA is bad because it enriches insurance companies. There’s a different ideological parade going down the road. 

Rovner: I was going to say, it’s important to remember at the beginning of Medicare Advantage, which was a Republican proposal back in 2003, they purposely overpaid it. They gave it more money because they know that when they give them more money, the insurance companies are required to return some of that money to beneficiaries in the form of these extra benefits. That’s why there are gym memberships and dental and vision and hearing coverage in these Medicare Advantage plans. It does make them popular, so people sign up. And that was sort of Republicans’ intent at the beginning. It was to sort of not so much push people into it but entice people into it. 

Kenen: And then— 

Rovner: And then maybe cut it back later. 

Kenen: No, but it’s exceeded expectations. 

Rovner: Absolutely. 

Kenen: The number of people going into Medicare Advantage has been really high, higher than people expected. And it’s also hard to get out, depending on what state you live in. It’s not impossible, but it’s costly and difficult, except for a few, I think it’s seven or eight states make it pretty easy. But also remember that the earlier version of what we now call Medicare Advantage was — which was the ’90s, right Julie? — I think the Medicare Part C, and that failed. So — 

Rovner: Well after, that failed because they cut it when they were — 

Kenen: Right. Right. 

Rovner: They cut all the funding when they were balancing the budget — 

Kenen: Right.  

Rovner: — in 1997. 

Kenen: But that gave them the excu— right. 

Rovner: They made it fail. 

Kenen: That gave them an excuse to give them more money later that, when they revived it, renamed it, and launched it in 2003 legislation, that initial push to give them a ton of money, because they could say, Well, we didn’t give them enough money, and that’s why they fa—. There are all sorts of political things going on that weren’t strictly money. But yeah, it was part of the narrative of Why we have to give them more money, is They need it. 

Rovner: Yeah. Anyway, we’ll also watch that space. Well, finally, this week, there’s news on the reproductive health front, because there’s always news on the reproductive health front. Shefali, Wyoming has become the latest state to enact a so-called heartbeat ban, barring abortions when cardiac activity can be detected. That’s often around six weeks, which is before many people are even aware of being pregnant. I thought the Wyoming Supreme Court said just this past January that its constitution prevents abortion bans. So what’s up here? 

Luthra: They did, in fact, say that, and so we are seeing this law taken to court. It was actually added in a court filing to a preexisting case challenging other abortion restrictions in the state. I’m sure that’s going to play out for quite some time. But what’s interesting about the Wyoming Constitution — right? — is that it protects the right to make health care decisions, in an effort to sort of fight against the ACA. That was this conservative approach that now has come to really benefit abortion rights supporters as well. But what I think this underscores is that even as we are seeing fairly little abortion policy in Washington, at least in a meaningful way, a lot is still happening on the state level. That really is where the bulk of action is, whether you see that in Wyoming, in Missouri, where they’re trying to undo the abortion rights protections there, and just— 

Rovner: The ones that passed by voters. 

Luthra: Exactly. And so what we’re really thinking about is anti-abortion activists are not really that confident in the president’s desire, interest, ability, what have you, to get their agenda items done. And for now, they are really focusing on the states, and that is where their interest, I think, will only remain, at least until the primary for the next presidential race begins in earnest. 

Rovner: Well, Shefali, I also want to ask you about a story that you wrote this week on just how many things ripple out economically from abortion restrictions. Now it’s having an impact on rent prices? Please explain. 

Luthra: I thought this was so interesting. It was this NBER [National Bureau of Economic Research] paper that came out this week, and they looked at comparably trending rental markets in states with abortion bans and those without them. And what they saw was that after the Dobbs decision, rental prices declined relative to places without bans, compared to those in those that had them. And this is really interesting. It just sort of continues. Rental prices went down, and also vacancies went up. And what the researchers say is this is a very, very dramatic and clear relationship, and it illustrates that people, when they have a choice, are considering abortion rights in terms of where they want to live. And anecdotally, we know that, because we’ve seen residents make choices about where they will practice. We’ve seen doctors decide where they will live. We have seen people move. Companies offer relocation benefits if people want them. And this is more data that illustrates that actually that affects the economy of communities, and it really underscores that where we live just simply will look different based on things like abortion rights and abortion policy and other of these things that are treated as social but really do affect people’s economic behaviors. 

Rovner: And as we pointed out before, it’s not just about quote-unquote “abortion,” because when doctors choose not to live in a certain place, it’s other types of health care. It’s all health care. And we know that doctors tend to marry or partner with other doctors. So sometimes if an OB GYN doesn’t want to move to a certain place, then that OB-GYN’s partner, who may be some completely other type of doctor, isn’t going to move there either. So we are starting to see some of these geographical shifts going on. 

Luthra: And one point actually that the researcher made that I thought was so interesting was that abortion policy, it can be emblematic, in and of itself, a reason people choose not to live somewhere, but people may also be making these decisions because of what it represents. Do I look at an abortion policy and say, Oh, this reflects social values or gender beliefs? Or does it also suggest maybe more anti-LGBTQ+ laws? And all of that can create a picture that is broader than simply abortion or not, and determine where and how people want to live their lives. 

Rovner: It’s a really interesting story. We will link to it. All right, that is this week’s news. Now I’ll play my interview with Andy Schneider of Georgetown University, and then we will be back to do our extra credits. 

Rovner: I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Andy Schneider, a research professor of the practice at the Georgetown University McCourt School of Public Policy. And he spent many years on Capitol Hill helping write and shape Medicaid law as a top aide to California Democratic congressman Henry Waxman — and many hours explaining it to me. I have asked him here to help untangle the Medicaid fraud fight now taking place between the federal government and, at least so far, mostly Democratic-led states. Andy, thanks for being here. 

Andy Schneider: Thanks for having me, Julie. 

Rovner: So, it’s not like fraud in Medicaid — and other health programs, for that matter — is anything new. Who are the major perpetrators of health care fraud? It’s not usually the patients, is it? 

Schneider: No, it’s usually some bad-actor providers or bad-actor businesspeople. 

Rovner: So how are fraud-fighting efforts at both the federal and state level, since Medicaid funding is shared, supposed to work? How does the federal government and the state government sort of try and make fraud as minimal as possible? Since presumably they’re never going to get rid of it. 

Schneider: Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re ever going to get rid of it in Medicaid or Medicare or private insurance or in other walks of life. There are bad actors out there. They’re going to try to take advantage. So you need your defenses up. So the short of this is, Medicaid is administered on a day-to-day basis by the states. The federal government pays for a majority of it and oversees how the states run their programs. In that context, the state Medicaid agency and the state fraud control unit have a primary role in identifying where there might be fraud, investigating, and then, in appropriate cases, prosecuting. The federal government also has a role, however. Depending on the scope of the fraud, it could involve the FBI. It could involve the Office of Inspector General at the Department of Health and Human Services. So there’s both federal and state presence, but the primary responsibilities were the states’. 

Rovner: We know that Minnesota has been experiencing a Medicaid fraud problem, because both the state and the federal government have been working on it for more than a year now. What is the Trump administration doing in Minnesota? And why is this different from what the federal government has traditionally done when it’s trying to ensure that states are appropriately trying to minimize fraud? 

Schneider: Well, usually the vice president of the United States does not get up at a White House press conference and announce he and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services are withholding $260 million in federal funds, called a deferral. That is highly, highly unusual. And normally the head of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services does not go and make videos in the state before something like this is announced. So I would say that this is way out of the ordinary, and I think it has to do with some animus in the administration towards Gov. [Tim] Walz and his administration. 

Rovner: Right. Gov. Walz, for those who don’t remember, was the vice presidential candidate in 2024 running against President Trump, who did win, in fact. But there have been two different efforts to withhold Medicaid money for Minnesota, right? 

Schneider: Yeah. Now you’re into the Medicaid weeds, but since you asked the question, I’ll take you there. So in January, the administra— the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services — we’ll call them CMS here — they announced they were going to withhold about $2 billion a year going forward, not looking back but going forward, in matching funds that the federal government would otherwise pay to the state of Minnesota for the services that it was providing to its over 1 million beneficiaries. In February at this White House press conference, what the vice president announced was withholding temporarily — we’ll see how temporary it is — but withholding temporarily $260 million in federal Medicaid matching funds that applied to state spending that’s already occurred, happened in the past, happened in the quarter ending Sept. 30, 2025. So both the past expenditures and future expenditures are targets for these CMS actions. 

Rovner: So what happens if the federal government actually doesn’t pay the state this money? I assume more than people who are committing fraud would be impacted. 

Schneider: Well, let’s be clear. The amounts of money here, there’s no relationship between those and however much fraud is going on in Minnesota. And there has been fraud against Medicaid in Minnesota. Everybody’s clear about that. The state is clear about it. The feds are clear about it. But $2 billion going forward in a year, $1 billion going, looking backwards, $260 million times four — there’s no relationship between those amounts, right? Should they come to pass —and all of this is still in process — should those amounts come to pass, you’re looking at, depending on who’s doing the estimates, between 7 and 18% of the amount of money the federal government pays, helps the state with, each year in Medicaid. That’s just an enormous hole for a state to fill, and it doesn’t have many good options. It can cut eligibility. It can cut services. It can cut reimbursement rates. Filling in that hole with state revenues, that’s going to be a real stretch. 

Rovner: So it’s not just Minnesota. Now the administration says it is seeing concerning things going on in New York and has launched a probe there. Is there any indication that this administration is going after states that are not run by Democrats? 

Schneider: So the only letters that we’ve seen from the administration have been to California, New York, and Maine. There may be other letters out there. We only access the public record. So so far, based on what we know, it’s just been Democratically run states. 

Rovner: As long as I’ve been covering this, which is now a long time, fraud-fighting has been pretty bipartisan. It’s been something that Congress has worked on, Democrats and Republicans in Congress, Democrats and Republicans in the states. What’s the danger of politicizing fraud-fighting, which is what certainly seems to be going on right now? 

Schneider: Yeah, that’s a terrific point. So it always has been bipartisan, because money is green. It’s not red. It’s not blue. It’s green. And trying to keep bad actors from ripping it off from Medicaid or Medicare has always been a bipartisan undertaking. The reason that’s important, particularly in a program like Medicaid, where the federal government and the state have to talk to one another when they are flagging potential fraud, when they’re investigating it, when they’re prosecuting it, you don’t want the agencies tripping all over one another. You want them sharing information as necessary, etc. When that gets politicized, it’s very bad for the results and for the effective operation of the program. 

Rovner: Well we will keep watching this space, and we’ll have you back to explain it more. Andy Schneider, thank you very much. 

Schneider: Julie Rovner, thank you very much. 

Rovner: OK, we’re back. Now it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize the story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Anna, why don’t you start us off this week? 

Edney: Sure. Mine is in The Wall Street Journal. It’s [“The Boom in Autism Therapy Is Medicaid’s Fastest-Growing Jackpot”]. This is a look at the booming business of providing therapy to children with autism. And that’s particularly been big in the Medicaid program. And I don’t want to give away too much, because there are just so many jaw-dropping details in this. So I guess the reporters were able to kind of go through the data and billing records in a way that showed some of these companies and what they were doing and how they were becoming millionaires, people who had never done anything in autism before. So if you enjoy a sort of jaw-dropping read, I think you should take a look at it. 

Rovner: Yeah, jaw-dropping is definitely the right description. Joanne. 

Kenen: So I sort of rummaged around the internet to the less widely read sources, and I came across this great story from the Idaho Capital Sun by Laura Guido. It has a long headline. Reminder that 988 is the mental health crisis line and suicide help. The headline is: “988 Ended His Call. Now an Idaho Teen Is Pushing for a Fix to the State’s Parental Consent Law.” The story is that a 15-year-old boy named Jace Woods called two years ago — so this still hasn’t been fixed after two years — and they cut him off. They sort of gently cut him off. But they can’t talk to these kids who have, who are in crisis, without parental consent. They do a quick assessment. If they think someone’s life is immediately in danger right then and there, they can stay on. But a kid who’s what they call suicidal ideation, seriously depressed and at risk, and knows he’s at risk or she’s at risk, and made this phone call, they don’t talk to them unless they think it’s imminent. So it also affects, these parental, it affects sexual health and STDs and abortion and whole lot of other things. 

Rovner: That’s what it was for. 

Kenen: That was the initial reason, but it got bigger. So a kid who calls in a crisis can get no help at all. And even in those emergency situations where they can stay on the line and try to get emergency help if they do think a kid’s in imminent danger, they’re not allowed to make a follow-up call to make sure they’re OK. So this kid has been trying for two years. There’s a state lawmaker. They’re refining a law. They say it’s, they’re refining a bill. They say it’s going to go through. But really this, talk about unintended consequences. We have a national mental health crisis, particularly acute for teens. This is not solving any problems. 

Rovner: It is not. Shefali. 

Luthra: My story is in The New York Times. It is by Apoorva Mandavilli. The headline is “States Move To Limit Access to H.I.V. Treatment.” And it’s just a good story about what is happening with the Ryan White AIDS Drug Assistance Programs, which people use to get their HIV medications paid for or for free. They get insurance support. And these are really important. Funding has been pretty flat for quite some time because they’re funded by Congress. And what the story gets into is that with growing financial pressure on these programs, there is more-expensive drugs, there are more-expensive insurance premiums, more people might be losing Medicaid. States are having to make very difficult choices, and they are cutting benefits. They are changing who is eligible, because it’s getting more expensive and there is more need and there is no support coming. And I wasn’t really on top of this and did not know what was going on, and I just thought it was interesting and a very useful look at some of the consequences of the policy choices that are making all of these health programs more expensive and health care, in general, harder to afford. 

Rovner: My extra credit this week is from The Marshall Project. It’s called “The Harrowing Journey Home for Families Leaving Immigration Detention.” It’s by Shannon Heffernan and Jesse Bogan and Anna Flagg. It answers the question that I’ve been wondering about since the whole immigration crackdown began, which is: What happens to the people who are snatched off the streets or out of their cars or homes, flown to a distant state, and then someone says: Oops, sorry. You can go. How do you get home from Texas or Louisiana to Minnesota or Massachusetts? Authorities don’t give you plane or even bus tickets to get back to where you were picked up, even though that’s where most of those being released are required to go to report back to immigration authorities. It turns out there’s a small network of charities that is helping. But as the story details pretty vividly, the harm to these families doesn’t end when their detention does./ 

OK. That’s this week’s show. As always, thanks to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer. Francis Ying. A reminder: What the Health? is now available on WAMU platforms, the NPR app, and wherever you get your podcasts, as well as, of course, kffhealthnews.org. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can still find me on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you guys hanging these days? Shefali? 

Luthra: I am at Bluesky, @shefali. 

Rovner: Anna. 

Edney: X and Bluesky, @annaedney. 

Rovner: Joanne. 

Kenen: A little bit of Bluesky and more on LinkedIn, @joannekenen. 

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.